The following transcript has been edited for length and readability. Listen to the entire discussion here on The Broadband Bunch. The Broadband Bunch is sponsored by ETI Software.
Joe Coldebella:
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Broadband Bunch. I’m Joe Coldebella, and we are in the Harrison Edwards Media Center at Mountain Connect in Denver, Colorado. Joining me is Brian Hollister, the co-founder and CEO of Bonfire Construction.
Brian Hollister:
Bonfire Infrastructure Group is the actual name, Joe. We, in the beginning, were Bonfire Construction.
Joe Coldebella:
Okay, that’s great.
Brian Hollister:
But services continue to grow, so we needed to do something a little different.
Joe Coldebella:
Awesome. So I would love it if you could share with our audience your origin story.
Brian Hollister:
Yeah. I’ve been in this industry my whole life. I love what we do.
Joe Coldebella:
Really? So just sorry to interject there, but it’s interesting that there are sort of two channels. There are folks that sort of stumble their way in, and then there are folks that have been part of it forever.
Brian Hollister:
Yeah, I stumbled my way in. A neighbor of mine thought that I had the right charisma to get a job in sales and telecom, and she was a very sweet neighbor who actually went out on a limb and helped me get an interview. I got my first gig at a company called ICI, and ultimately it helped me to move into another gig with MCI.
Joe Coldebella:
Isn’t that crazy how life works that way? I sort of have the same story. So I was in advertising for about 20 years. I needed to fulfill an elective to graduate from college, and it was a marketing course. All the students who were in marketing courses were marketing students. I was a political science major, so I had absolutely no thought of going in this direction. And we did a bunch of assignments, and the teacher pulled me aside and she said, “Listen, I shouldn’t say this and don’t tell the other students, but they are clueless, and in terms of the assignments that we’re doing, you get it.” And so, she piqued my interest. So 20 years later, I was in advertising. It’s crazy how life works that way.
Brian Hollister:
Absolutely. In my mind, it’s always about helping someone out along the way. So of course, I’m in a different position now. And I’m always trying to help younger folks get into the business and do everything I can because our business is amazing. It’s really not just our business, but our industry, exceptional growth, and so many opportunities. And the thing that actually keeps me up these days is, are we going to be able to meet the demand? Are we going to be able to get enough people in our industry to fulfill the work, do the labor, and do the construction? You can’t outsource construction offshore. It’s local. You need boots on the ground. There are going to be challenges ahead, and I think we need to do everything we can to inspire young people to get into this industry.
Joe Coldebella:
I totally agree, and I would love to dive deeper into that. Before we do, could we get the Bonfire story?
Brian Hollister:
Yeah. I love telling it. This story got started when one of my co-founders had an opportunity where he was trying to grow his own opportunity and kind of hit a ceiling. And one day, we were chatting, and I was doing a lot of work with CenturyLink. I also used to work for Calix. And we got together one day, and he’s like, “Man, I’m in a really weird position. I can’t grow with my company. Everyone loves everything I’m doing, but I can’t grow. And I’m trying to get a new job. Would you sponsor me?”
And so, I said, “Yes, of course.” Then, he went to try to get a job with Calix and ADTRAN, suppliers in our space, and then they both got cold feet and didn’t want to hire him away from one of their clients.
So we got together one day, and he was upset. And I said, “Well, no one can stop you from starting your own business. And I believe in you.” I think this was probably after a couple of margaritas. I said, “I would absolutely invest in you,” because I knew what he was capable of doing. He had the right heart. He had the right experience, and he was a great man. And so, that was kind of the initiation of the idea. And then, we brought another gentleman in. We all got together in the mountains behind this fellow’s house, and we built a bonfire and tried to solve all the world’s problems. And we were drinking beer from a brewery called Bonfire. We were like, “Well, what are we going to name this thing?”
And we’re trying to figure it out, because it’s like literally naming your child, trying to name your company. As we were doing this, I finally said, “Well, you know what? I don’t know about you guys,” and it could have been the booze talking, but I was like, “I love bonfires. Bonfires always bring people together. I haven’t been to a bonfire where there’s ever been a fistfight. People are in a good mood at a bonfire. Why don’t we just call it Bonfire?” And that was it.
Joe Coldebella:
That’s a great story. Naming is so important in terms of just something that rolls off the lips. Just as a quick sidebar, there’s the bicycle company, Cannondale Bicycles, a huge company. And they started in the ’70s, and they needed to set up a bank account and a phone. But they didn’t have anything. So one of the guys took his bicycle to the train station and was on the phone with the utility company to get everything. And they’re like, “Well, you can’t get anything set up unless your company has a name.” And he looked at the signage at the train station, and it said, “Cannondale.” He’s like, “We’re Cannondale.”
Brian Hollister:
I love stories like that. I think there are so many great ones out there like that.
Joe Coldebella:
But it’s just like it’s inspired, right?
Brian Hollister:
Literally. I mean, that’s what it is really about. I mean, of course, lots of folks try to do all kinds of fancy stuff like hire firms to help them with it. But I think that the Cannondale story, like Bonfire, it’s just real. It’s how it went down. And sometimes don’t overthink it.
Joe Coldebella:
I couldn’t agree more. Sometimes the right answer is A to B.
Brian Hollister:
Absolutely. So yeah, we finally got that figured out, then started the company and the company focused on doing engineering and construction work. And that was really the beginning. We started working a lot for a tier one, and that helped us get into many states with that particular arrangement. And we grew like wildfire. But along the way, I had never been a CEO of a company with this much aspiration, if you will. I had done some things when I was in my 20s that we could talk about over beers sometime. So I went out and really sought advisors and wanted to surround myself with people who could help me and learn. I think it’s always about trying to learn from other’s mistakes. And if they can help you not step in dodo to one time, it’s a beautiful thing. So it’s always about sharing.
And so, part of that was figuring out why we’re doing this business. We know what we did, but why do we exist? And we exist because we believe all Americans deserve affordable broadband because it makes their lives better. And so, that mission really started driving everything we did in the business, but then we realized, well, what can we have an impact on? The cost to the consumer. If we save a provider money, that does not directly result in the price to the consumer.
So that led us on this massive quest. During my time at Calix, I started learning about open access as Calix at the time was going international. We started hearing about it in South Africa, Australia, the UK, of course, Sweden, and Denmark. So many countries have actually been doing open access for quite a long time because hopefully at the end of this, a lot of people say, yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And that was where we started figuring out that maybe there’s something else that we can provide from a service perspective. Maybe we could actually go out and help other asset owners, say a municipality or a tribe where they know they want to potentially own the asset. But now it’s like who’s going to manage it? It’s such a lift. If you think about municipalities, they build infrastructure. They manage it really well, but whether it’s trash, sewer, you name it, it just comes up to the house. They never go inside the home. So becoming an ISP is quite a lift.
And so, we literally went out for 18 months traveling all over the world during COVID, which obviously was challenging with some of the countries because we couldn’t get access. There were lots of Zoom calls, et cetera. We just tried to learn from everyone that we’re doing open access. One, what’s your definition of it? How are you doing it? What’s successful in this market? We then created what is now launched as Bonfire Fiber, which is an entity of the company that will manage someone else’s assets in an open-access format.
And when we talk about open access, the way we look at it, Joe, is that I like to think about it as an airport. Can you imagine how much more expensive our already expensive airline tickets would be if every airline had to build its own runway and terminals? I mean, it would obviously be very expensive. It would be way underutilized, and we would not have nearly as many options of travel choices to destinations as we have today. So today, in an airport, someone owns that asset, sometimes the owners, the municipality, and they also manage it. And sometimes there’s a third-party company that manages it, but then of course they lease out terminal space, and runway time to the airlines. And they’re all utilizing that.
You came through Denver, which is now number three in the busiest airports in the world. It would not have gotten like that if they all weren’t working together to create a common infrastructure that all the airlines could utilize. The airlines have to focus on the service they provide, the flight. That’s what ISPs obviously can do. In this kind of format, a municipality can build its own network. And what we’re trying to do then is say, “Hey, if you need help operating that network, we’re here to help you.”
And at the end of that engagement, if they ultimately take over the operations, wonderful. We are fulfilling our mission which is helping to connect Americans with affordable broadband. So that’s what got us into that. So now the company of course does the engineering and construction still, but we now also do a lot of consulting upfront, helping municipalities, ISPs, you name it, figure out what’s possible, do all the analytics, all the financial modeling to help stakeholders of communities find a way to create a sustainable broadband solution.
And of course, our announcement yesterday at Mountain Connect was super exciting. We’re managing the Southern Utes Indian Tribes Network in an open-access way. They’re in Southwestern Colorado. And this is an interesting aspect because they knew they needed to own the asset. It was very important to their community, but it was going to be a major lift to build the right team to operate it. At the end of the day, a lot of tribes are going to be in this situation where it may never prove out to build your own team because the network and the amount of people you’re serving isn’t great enough.
The Southern Ute Indian Reservation is a beautiful reservation. It covers 1,025 square miles roughly. But there are only 6,800 homes. So there is very little density of course. And it’s just not enough people to really create the proper business case. So outsourcing some components is a great way to look at it. They knew strategically that they needed to own the asset but were not in this business. They wanted to make sure that they were bringing the right people in who could help grow it. The open access model was key to them because they’re trying to break up the monopolies that are on the reservation today because there’s several big companies that do business there. But it’s very scattered. I think the 80-something percent of the tribe can’t even get 10 meg down, 1 meg up.
Joe Coldebella:
Right. Then they said they’re served, but in fact they’re not.
Brian Hollister:
It’s terrible.
Joe Coldebella:
Unfortunately, they fall farther and farther behind. And then, the digital divide grows as opposed to shrinking.
Brian Hollister:
100%. So we’re excited about the opportunity to continue our work with the Southern Ute. We’ve been working with them for several years. They’ve had a multi-phase build. We built their backbone in the last couple of years, and soon we’ll start actually connecting subscribers.
Joe Coldebella:
So thanks for that. So you’re creating this network. Is there a number of ISPs that you’re looking to bring in? Obviously, competition is good, but does too much competition dilute the product? Is there a sweet spot?
Brian Hollister:
Yeah, I think what people have to realize, there are two components. One, whether you’re a municipality or a tribe, as you’re starting to figure out your plan, you need to talk to everyone locally, all the different folks that provide services for broadband, because there are partnerships to obviously be had. And you need to understand some of their challenges and some of their needs that you may be solving that they don’t even know. So definitely start the partnership and the conversations to figure out what’s happening in the marketplace. And then secondly, you have to look at the ISPs as just as much a customer as the end user.
Joe Coldebella:
That’s a great point.
Brian Hollister:
And so, we need to make sure that ISPs have a viable business. If you flood the market with too many, then there’s just not enough to make it worthwhile. And then, what you may have is that some of the ISPs are not putting that much effort into that area. Maybe they’re even trying to think about how to get off the network.
So open access must have more than one provider. So even on the smallest networks, I think two or three is great. Especially to start, you need to have that. And what you’ll find too in some cases, some ISPs like to do consumer-only services. Some like to only do enterprise; some like to do only schools or multi-dwelling units. And some of course do it all. So you may have several on the network, but they might not directly compete with each other all the time.
So the devil’s in the details always, right? But we’ve seen Utopia’s Network be one of the most successful networks. I am so proud of the work those guys have been doing. I mean, they’re cheerleaders and crusaders that help inspire me. And some people say there are too many on the network, and I think you have to really understand the details. What we heard today from one of the providers that has, I don’t know, what do you say, 43% of all the subscribers. It’s still an open market. Somebody’s going to win, and somebody’s going to lose. But you as the asset owner, the operator, you’ve got to be careful to try to look to balance that as much as you can for them and the community.
Joe Coldebella:
No, I think it’s very much the Pareto principle, right? 20% will own 80% of the market, but you should give them the opportunity. I remember someone had a small ISP that was very restrictive, but it was there because that was what the market wanted because the parents wanted to make sure that the kids had very limited access to the internet. The internet can be a wonderful, terrific thing, but it also can be pretty dark.
Brian Hollister:
It’s just how we’re thinking about AI right now. On one side of the coin, we’re uber-excited about it. And if we’ve played with it at all, it’s mind-blowing. And on the other side, we’re scared because we’ve seen what’s already happened with the internet. The internet changed everything but with good comes some bad too. And there are other opportunities to try to manage that, of course.
Joe Coldebella:
So can we say that there is no one open-access definition?
Brian Hollister:
Oh, of course. I mean, Joe, we joke about this all the time. If you ask five people their definitions, they’re going to give you five different answers. And that’s the cool thing about it. There are various components of it, but in my mind, the number one piece is that there’s more than one service provider on it. And the consumer has the ability to choose.
Joe Coldebella:
Right. And then, it’s sort of a double-edged sword. If you only have one, then you have a monopoly. Then the service suffers, and it’s super expensive. So you definitely need that competition. And would you say that a public-private partnership is important?
Brian Hollister:
100%. I mean, what we’re seeing with BEAD and all funding now is that they just don’t want to just hand out funding to private enterprises. They want to see a partnership and collaboration with the municipalities and private enterprises. And so, it’s interesting because if you’re a municipality and you’re going to go create your own ISP, you must be careful because now you are competing with your private enterprise, which also can be your constituents that work and live in the area.
So you’ve got to find a way to balance that. So I like the open access model in a way that the Muni can still own a strategic asset if it’s very important for them to do that. And they can then open up the network and all those ISPs now instead of competing, they’re partnering with them. So I think that’s uber important to understand.
The other piece is we see so many ISPs now because everyone is talking about open access and it’s cool now. We used to talk about all the reasons why it doesn’t work, and ISPs that are not offering open access or being very careful to not badmouth it. And in fact, they’re talking about open access too, that hey, “We’re going to come into your area. We’re going to start with just us as the ISP, but then we’re going to open up the network in the future.”
Now, I actually haven’t seen that done, but this is the trend that’s starting to happen. No one wants to dog it because it makes sense. It’s like the airport analogy. If we didn’t have that, it’s like you’re looking at it, wait, what would happen if every airline had to build their own infrastructure? That doesn’t make sense, right? That’s what we’re saying here.
Joe Coldebella:
Well, I also think that it also determines the size of the airport, because not everyone needs an international airport. Someone might need just a local regional airport. And so, you’re going to only have two ISPs versus someone like Utopia which has 16 with multiple cities and multiple folks to serve.
Brian Hollister:
Absolutely.
Joe Coldebella:
So if we could just take a slight step back, I’d love it if we could talk a little bit about what other countries do. Was there a country where you said, “Wow, these guys are really doing it right? This is somebody we should copy.” Was there somebody you were like, “Whoa, these guys think they’ve got it right, but I think that they’re going down the wrong path?”
Brian Hollister:
That’s a really great question. In talking to a lot of those folks, we learned that they had history. They were doing it, and they shared a lot of their learned lessons. What worked; what didn’t work. So we had that benefit, if you will, of learning after the fact from all these folks who have put a lot of effort into this initiative. Starting anything new, there are so many learnings. So they were so wonderful to share a lot of that. And in my business today, we have three different partners that we work with that just happen to be Swedish.
So we kind of gravitated towards Sweden. And on one of our trips, we actually got to visit power companies that took on the asset component and opened up the network. We got to talk to ISPs and operators, and we literally toured all over the country. It is a beautiful country to go to in the summertime when there’s a lot of sunlight and warmth. And so, that was just all inspiring. But then, we talked to people in the UK and Australia. Each one of them has different characteristics that may be driving it. And some of the countries, there’s legislation and regulation, but a lot of people think in Sweden, because they widely talk about, I think they’re at 97% coverage of fiber like South Africa that we heard earlier today. And they were almost trying to solve the problem 10 years before us.
I was just talking to someone from Sweden the other day, and they’re like, “I love our conferences here. They’re like our conferences 10 years ago talking about the digital divide.” Because they just got started on the problem a little sooner, and they also have obviously very different geographies and things. But what was really neat about Sweden was there’s no legislation that drove it. There were a couple of big providers that actually were backbone providers, and they came together and started thinking about, “Well, we’re building backbone. We open up to everyone who wants transport on the backbone it’s ‘open access’ by definition. Why would we just not extend that to the consumer and businesses and kind of keep doing what we’re doing?”
And so, that big provider was called IP-Only. They’re one of the largest in Europe. And then, that started driving the market and started driving consolidation and change. And I actually learned that through that process. I just assumed there was some legislation that helped drive it. I mean, how do you get such high fiber penetration so early? We obviously have still a big gap here, but we also have different challenges in the US, especially our geography.
Joe Coldebella:
We do. Look at a city like Chattanooga. They figured it out a long, long time ago. So then, you just shake your fist and go, “Oh, why didn’t everyone follow that model?” But I’m sure you’re right. Maybe we weren’t ready, and maybe the world wasn’t ready for fiber 10 years ago. But now data is so important. Everything is happening at lightning speed. The pandemic obviously put a light on the fact that we need this. Also, people are working from home, so maybe it’s sort of a tectonic shift as well.
Brian Hollister:
I think there is. Chattanooga is obviously a wonderful example of early success in making gigabit happen. Longmont right here up the road has done an amazing job. They deliver power, and they felt like it was a great natural add-on. And I believe in all of that as well.
Open access though, when those folks needed to move forward, I don’t think it was nearly as prevalent in the US. And so it was a heavier lift for them. So they had to take it all on. They had to create their own customer service group that understands obviously telephony and the internet. And so, it was an even bigger lift. That’s why it’s in some ways even that much more amazing what they’ve accomplished. But I think those same types of electric co-ops and municipalities that are considering it now, I don’t think we’ll see as many of them go the vertically integrated ISP route because they don’t need to. They need to solve the access problem and they need to provide choice.
And at the end of the day, they’re really good at infrastructure. So continue to get the infrastructure out there and manage it but open it up for the ISPs to compete on the services, because now you’re putting a municipality that traditionally doesn’t move very quickly and making them responsible for bringing new application services to market. I don’t know if they really want to be in that business in the long run.
Joe Coldebella:
It’s a great point. It’s a balance. You’ve got the straight municipality doing what it is they do, but then you need that innovation. You need that motivation. And that’s one of the things hopefully as a country, we do really well.
Brian Hollister:
I think so. We’re seeing it. I mean, open access now, that’s why I joked when I opened up my panel earlier today that you sat in on and said, “Hey, open access will work everywhere except for your market.” Because it’s like people have just been pushing back on it for a long time, now everyone’s like, “No, open access is good because we’re seeing successes all over the country.” But then, they’ll say, “Well, yeah, but it won’t work. It won’t work in my market. But yeah, it totally makes sense for you guys.”
And it’s like, “Well, have you really spent the time to really think through it?” Because what we’re seeing is that money can be made at the infrastructure level, the operations level, and the service provider application level. And I think a lot of people don’t believe that, but it’s true. They’re just different models. There are different support costs for each one of those, and it works. I mean, that’s the bottom line. It works.
Joe Coldebella:
Now, one of the problems is that there is a little bit of a turf war as well. I was just in a room listening to a panel, and actually, a lot of the people in the audience were having, let’s say, a spirited discussion in terms of the different alternatives. LEOs came up, the fiber came up as like, “Hey, listen, we have to do all fiber.” And then, this one was like, “No, wireless is an opportunity as well.” What’s your take on that as well? Is it like where fiber can be, fiber should be, or is it one of those things where it needs to be the right tool for the right job?
Brian Hollister:
Well, you now are entering the religious side of this debate.
Joe Coldebella:
Should I genuflect?
Brian Hollister:
Depending on who you’re talking about, the emotions get very strong. And the way I look at it though is I’m a technologist at heart. And to your point, we use fiber where we can use fiber, and that’s our first choice. But wireless has had many innovations as well. And even on the Southern Ute Reservation, we’re focused on these initial grants covering the highest density areas.
We’re going to go after more dollars of course to try and get some of these other areas served. But honestly, the cost will be radically more expensive than even this first part. And so, a lot of the local WISPs are very excited that we’re going to now get fiber to their towers, and they’re going to be able to increase the broadband that they’re actually, the throughput ultimately in the quality of service that they’re providing in a lot of those very, very rural areas.
So we’ve got two things going on. The Southern Ute is enabling their fiber network for the consumer and businesses where it makes sense, and we’re still going to enable local wireless providers that are having to do wireless backhaul, which your capacity can get limited very quickly, whereas obviously, fiber is almost infinitely expandable just putting the right equipment on it. So we have two things happening there. They’re not going to do open access in that wireless area, but we’re going to go help enable those partners to actually provide an even better solution in those areas. So I think the two personally work really well together.
And low-orbiting satellite, I think, is another amazing tool in our bag, but I think it’s going to be very application-driven. Obviously, autonomous vehicles, remote connectivity to super hard parts that are never going to be able to get good connectivity. But in an area where it’s denser and we can make the economics work, nothing will ever compete with fiber. But these are all tools in the bag, and we’ve got to figure it out.
A lot of providers are categorized as carriers of last resort. Now, there’s a new NOFA that came out around the extended ACAM solution where they must decide, “Hey, can I serve 100% of my serving area?” And then, they’ll be able to get a 15-year payback from this program.
Part of that program does allow for 100 by 20 because one of our clients right now that we’re talking to only needs to serve another thousand people. But Joe, the thousand people will cost $68 million to serve. And in some of the last 1- or 2%, the cost of those can be hundreds of thousands of dollars. So LEO is amazing for those, and we’re actually building that right into the model. And so, we’re going to do fiber where it makes sense. So they have the best solution as long as they possibly can, and there’s going to be areas that just don’t really make that much sense to try and serve 100%. The last 2% will kill any business case in America.
Joe Coldebella:
No, and I truly appreciate that. And I thought one of your panelists made a great point that people really should consider that when you’re doing these builds — obviously you want to serve everyone as soon as possible, but he said, “Go for the high-density areas first because you’ve got to sustain yourself. You’ve got to make sure that you have a viable path forward.” And I thought that was great.
Brian Hollister:
And I love that he came out with that because of course, if you’re in the ruralest part of the county, you are not happy. But you’ve got to understand they’re trying to build something that’s going to be sustainable. And so, the first big hurdle is getting the money to build the fiber. The next big hurdle is building your operations team to keep it going forever. So there’s a careful balance there, and that really must be thought through. You do need to go after the density, you do need to get the revenue starting to generate so you can make it sustainable.
Joe Coldebella:
And then you hope in the meantime, they’ll use the LEOs or the different avenues to get connectivity. But also it’s just like anything, you’re making that choice to be farther out there. Hopefully, we can get a road to you, but it’s going to take some time.
Brian Hollister:
100%. And I think that’s exactly where you do need to bring in the other technologies and say, “Well, wait a second, you are not going to be at the end of the five-year build. Here’s what we’re trying to do right now to still help you.” In an Indian country, that’s been very important with the tribe to have a comprehensive plan. So we’ve been talking a lot about the open access and the fiber piece, but remember they cover over a thousand square miles. It’s a massive piece of land, but with not that much density, so we must rely on the other solutions or otherwise we’re going to only enhance the divide.
Joe Coldebella:
So when you talk to these folks if you lay it out to them, do they understand that it’s not a light switch?
Brian Hollister:
Yeah. I think what’s really cool about what’s happening in our industry. There was one positive thing that happened during the pandemic. It really shined the light on connectivity because it separated the haves and the have-nots immediately. And so, obviously, this funding coming from BEAD is all a result. And so, it’s so important to think through all these different pieces, and it’s making so many people more generally educated. My mom forever just thinks I work on computers and do IT stuff and of course, calls me for all her computer work. But now she really understands that I’m on the internet side. I’m helping to connect. I have nothing to do with that computer except that it’s just a device on the end of this line.
Joe Coldebella:
But you know what it is though? When I talk to my parents, I try to tell them what I do. And they still don’t know. I said, “Oh, I’m a copywriter.” “Oh, are you the one who draws in the little Cs?” “No, mom. No, that’s not what I did.” But it’s part of the thing.
Brian Hollister:
Oh, of course, of course.
Joe Coldebella:
Unless you’re a doctor, a lawyer —
Brian Hollister:
Exactly.
Joe Coldebella:
They don’t know.
Brian Hollister:
But it’s really interesting because you can talk about broadband now with anybody.
Joe Coldebella:
Isn’t it the truth, right? We always say it here on The Broadband Bunch, it was a horrible year and a half or two years, but there was a silver lining.
Brian Hollister:
Yeah, exactly. We were talking to some of our Swedish friends where they have all this connectivity, such high penetration, and they were like, when the pandemic came, it wasn’t a big deal for them. They all just went home and worked. The ones that obviously could. It wasn’t every industry, but everyone was still connected. Obviously, it sent massive waves through America and worldwide.
Joe Coldebella:
It is transformative in so many different ways. I mean, just looking at the commercial real estate in major cities. People found that they can get a lot more done when they don’t have a 45-minute commute each way. We’re all learning to work in a new way. So speaking of work, obviously we’re going to be building these networks. And there’s also a number of folks aging out of the industry, and so the workforce is going to be a real issue. How do we fix that problem, and what are the different paths we can take?
Brian Hollister:
That’s a great question. It is something that actually, Joe, keeps me up at night. It’s like, okay, you’ve finally built a successful growing company. A lot of things are working really well for us. And the thing that keeps me up is that all of a sudden there’s a point where we just can’t take on more work because we cannot facilitate the labor to get it done.
Joe Coldebella:
Wow.
Brian Hollister:
And so, that hasn’t happened yet, but it’s on the horizon. I just came out of a panel where that’s exactly what they were talking about, and each one of them was having their different challenges. And so in my mind, broadband in some ways, even though it’s been around forever, it’s kind of a new industry if you think about it. I mean, we’ve only been using the word broadband for the last handful of years in general. And so I think we’ve got to do a better job making sure that people understand it is an industry. It’s a massive industry.
Joe Coldebella:
It’s a career.
Brian Hollister:
It’s a whole career, and there needs to be more work done at the younger level, even in high school.
Joe Coldebella:
Can we even go lower? I don’t know.
Brian Hollister:
Well, someone was just saying that they were getting some feedback that they’re talking to juniors and seniors, and they should be talking to freshmen and sophomores because they’re already getting their minds set around things. Whether that happens or not, we all choose our degrees when we go off to college, and lots of times we totally do something else. But what’s cool about broadband is you don’t need to go to college. I have some wonderful, wonderful folks that do very high-tech stuff for our staff that didn’t finish their four-year degree, but they were at the beginning of the industry, all the tier ones, all the usual suspects, they actually did amazing training programs. I mean like AT&T had their own university, and all of them did.
When they started slowing down their builds, they actually got rid of all those training centers in a big way. And they outsource a lot of it. And now, it’s like, who’s doing it? So there’s not really a good comprehensive program in school. If you’re trying to get your electrical engineering, you’ll get one track of broadband, where they’ll talk about what we do. And that’s about it. So there needs to be more work done there. People need to recruit younger.
One of the panelists was just saying that when they go into town, they go find the local high school. And they go talk to the football coach to figure out which kids to talk to. The coach knows which kids are probably not going to college. But they obviously all need jobs and careers. He said that is one way that they’ve found some of the very best people, getting them young, and training them. And if you get them young and you train them appropriately, you might have them forever.
So I think there’s a great opportunity to influence younger people. And I also think that we need to consider how we are working with folks outside the country to try to bring people in. Even if we do the best job in the world, working with young folks, there are a lot of competing industries now. There’s a smart grid and so many interesting things happening. And there’s a lot of competition for all of this labor. So I think we need to think about our immigration and that’s part of what’s driven our country to where it is today. I think we need to think a little bit harder about that and focus on bringing even more people in and training them appropriately to help us in this because I don’t know if we’re going to have enough people, period.
Joe Coldebella:
It is crazy, we’re doing all this building and then once all the building is done, we’re going to have to maintain these networks and these ISPs and all the different things that we’re going to do. And so, is AI an answer?
Brian Hollister:
In some parts, yes, but AI doesn’t help you with boots on the ground that actually build or maintain it.
Joe Coldebella:
Sure.
Brian Hollister:
It’s going to be amazing in a lot of different parts, but you’ve got to find those people because you can’t offshore that. The labor’s a big component.
Joe Coldebella:
So now, you touched on college a little bit. It seems like just because of the cost of the loans and everything like that we need to almost revitalize that back in the ’50s and ’60s where the trade schools were front and center. Obviously, we’ve got the community college system, but I think that we almost need to inject that with some type of energy. I know that there are some folks that are doing programs with community colleges but rather than go $60,000 or $100,000 in debt, here’s a path that has a career that’s good-paying, that gives you an opportunity to stay local, stay close to home. I think maybe that’s something we need to stop and really examine.
Brian Hollister:
I think you’re right because I think one of the biggest challenges is you can rack up all that debt and then not have a job. And so those programs need to be combined with opportunities where there’s a component where they’re getting an education, classroom environment, and then maybe half of their day they’re going on the job. I think there are a lot of different ways we could work to figure that out, but it is a combination.
On-the-job training is amazing and probably one of the most preferred. But at the same time in construction, if you take a crew, let’s say, and you’ve got several experienced people and then you put someone on there who has no experience, that person’s actually going to slow down the whole crew, because they’re all trying to help that person understand things. So there are opportunities and funding where states and governments can actually pay you to bring that person on and train them and pay you like a GI Bill.
There are several programs like that, and part of the BEAD funding and all this funding that’s out there has dollars set aside for training. It’s training for not only digital inclusion but also its workforce. So there’s a lot of really good opportunities, and that’s part of what we like to crusade around and talk about too, is getting everyone to start talking about this stuff more. There are a lot of super smart people in this industry, and it’s always about collaboration, sharing ideas, and figuring out these pieces because we’re all going to have this challenge if we don’t work towards it. And some people are already starting to do some really good things, but there’s a lot more that’s needed.
Joe Coldebella:
I wish that when students start their path, whether it’s community college or university, there is a discussion about earning potential. If you’re going to go down the philosophy major, that’s great, but this is your earning potential for the next 35 or 40 years. Compare that to someone who’s in the broadband industry. Someone might decide that they can read Plato on the side but pursue a career that’s going to give them an opportunity.
Brian Hollister:
I think you’re 100% right. I remember when I was starting school, there wasn’t really that much help in helping you understand the details. But behind some of these roles, you make assumptions. So I know what an accountant does and a doctor, lawyer, and even then, I don’t know if we really know. So some help upfront and introducing young folks into the industry to help them understand potential.
What’s really cool about our industry is there are a lot of different facets. You can become an engineer, go down an extremely technical route, run machinery, or do all types of geospatial engineering design. There are all kinds of opportunities in our industry, and our industry pays pretty well. We get folks that come in and in 18 months, and they can be making $60,000 or $70,000. And they don’t have to have that college education. Are they hungry? Are they teachable? And do they have the will? We’ll teach them the skill.
Joe Coldebella:
Yeah, that’s great. Brian, I know that you’re a CEO, but you also have another title, another three-letter acronym. It’s the DOB. Could you share with our listeners what is that exactly?
Brian Hollister:
Oh, we were having some fun in the panel, and I put in some other acronyms. And DOB is a drinker of beer. I definitely enjoy beer. And during the pandemic, we started a podcast as well, and of course, we were like, “Well, gosh, we got to figure out a way to be different.” And we always try to figure out how to bring fun to everything we do.
Joe Coldebella:
Super important.
Brian Hollister:
It’s super important. And so, we came up with Beer & Broadband. And so, we get folks together. Obviously, you don’t have to drink alcohol on it, and a lot of folks don’t. That’s totally cool, but we like to approach it in a casual way just like we are right now, Joe, and have a conversation.
Joe Coldebella:
It’s all about storytelling.
Brian Hollister:
It’s all about storytelling. And after someone usually has a beer or two, the storytelling gets better.
Joe Coldebella:
Doesn’t it? Right. Sometimes good ideas come out of it because all of a sudden, you’re drinking, and you’re not thinking about it or stressing. And all of a sudden someone says, “Hey, let’s do A.” Then someone goes, “No, let’s do A, B, and C.” And then you’re like, “Wow, that’s great.”
But you’re 100% right, we’ve got to make sure that we keep the dialogue open. When you hear a story that someone does in Florida and all of a sudden it’s like, oh, wow, that actually will work in Washington as well.
Brian Hollister:
100%. It is always, in my opinion, about sharing information. It’s like what I talked about earlier. If you can tell me one thing that helps me not screw something up, that is invaluable. And what we’re trying to achieve as a country is some heavy lifting. Building infrastructure is super hard and super expensive. And as we talked about open access today, there are so many variations of the model that can be tweaked. Share that. And with us in our mission of why we exist, I tell everyone everything I know all the time, because one, I probably talk too much and I love to talk. But I love to share, honestly. Usually, when you’re sharing, then other people start sharing.
My team in the beginning was like, “Well, Brian, you tell everyone every little innovation we come up with.” I was like, “Guys, because this mission is bigger than any one of us, and we all need to work together.”
So I love what we do because in my prior world, competition, we were pretty hardcore about it. And in this world of doing the services, I don’t really see competition. I see a lot of people trying to figure out how to make it happen, and there are a lot of ways to actually work together. And sometimes, when we’re bidding on something, someone might be a competitor by definition because we both bid on it. But again, there’s only so much labor. So if I win it now, I’m turning to you and saying, “Hey, Joe, let’s still work together.”
Joe Coldebella:
Right. That’s great.
Brian Hollister:
We’ll figure it out.
Joe Coldebella:
That’s the perfect way to look at things. We’re all in this together.
Brian Hollister:
Exactly, exactly. So I think this is going to be fun to see the evolution that happens with more folks doing open access. And I think there are a lot of carriers that are, of course, vertically integrated ISPs that don’t participate in open access that actually should consider open access even on their own networks. Because at the end of the day, if there’s more than one person trying to sell into the community and you get more people on the network, you’re still going to benefit because you own the infrastructure. And so what, you’re not getting all the revenue. So what? But you’re actually driving more and more utilization and penetration on the network, which makes the economics work better for everyone. So it’s a little easier said than done with back office systems and all that fun stuff, but it can be figured out, of course.
Joe Coldebella:
Brian, this was an absolutely phenomenal visit. If folks want to get ahold of you or if folks want to be on Beer & Broadband, where can they go for more information?
Brian Hollister:
Yeah, well obviously, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I am Brian Hollister. And of course, our website, bonfireig.com for Bonfire Infrastructure Group, and reach out and fill out the contact information. We’d love to talk to anyone about what we do. So please reach out. I love sharing anything I can to help somebody.
Joe Coldebella:
Brian, thank you so much for your time. It’s been great visiting with you. Hopefully, we can do it again a year from now or six months from now.
Brian Hollister:
Absolutely.
Joe Coldebella:
It’s great hearing you and meeting you in person, so thanks so very, very much.
Brian Hollister:
Thanks, Joe. It was a pleasure, and thank you for having me.
Joe Coldebella:
All right, that’s going to wrap up this episode of The Broadband Bunch. Until next time, we’ll see you guys later.
