The following transcript has been edited for length and readability. Listen to the entire discussion here on The Broadband Bunch. The Broadband Bunch is sponsored by ETI Software.
Joe Coldebella:
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Broadband Bunch. We are in Fort Lauderdale, Florida at the NTCA SRC Live Event. I’m your host, Joe Coldebella. Joining me is Catherine de Wit, the Program Director for Broadband Access for the Pew Charitable Trusts. That’s a mouthful. Catherine, welcome back to the Broadband Bunch.
Kathryn de Wit:
Joe. Thanks for having me again. It’s so nice to be back.
Joe Coldebella:
It’s always great to have you. Your organization is phenomenal. I was wondering if you could just sort of un unpack for the folks that are new to the industry a little bit about yourself.
Kathryn de Wit:
Sure. Thanks for having me here. So I lead what’s called the Broadband Access Initiative at the Pew Charitable Trusts. For those of you who may not be familiar with Pew, or you’re not like my parents and only know them from NPR, we are a nonprofit nonpartisan research organization. So we study everything from pensions to penguins and broadband to help policymakers at every level of government solve complex policy problems. And one of them is broadband, which is where we started this work about five years ago.
Joe Coldebella:
Yeah. I can’t recommend your website enough. It’s a great place to get comprehensive knowledge in terms of just getting educated. This industry is so layered and has so many different sorts of nooks and crannies. It’s great to have a resource like Pew because it’s daunting sometimes.
Kathryn de Wit:
Yeah, it is. I’ve been working in this space for about a decade now, and I’m still learning every day, which is great. That’s how it should be, but it can be very overwhelming for folks who are new to the space.
Joe Coldebella:
And we’re getting a lot.
Kathryn de Wit:
Yes, we are every day, which again, that’s good. That’s what we want. That’s how we’re going to make sure that these networks are really useful for folks in the long run. We need people from all different industries and sectors coming to the table and saying, “I’m not a technology expert. I’m not a telecom expert. But let me talk to you about why these connections matter to the people that I serve, to my customers, to my patients, all of it.” So it’s good. But the education piece is tough.
Joe Coldebella:
It most definitely is. So, if we could hop into the way back machine and go back five years, I’m sure that there’s no way you could have seen this tsunami wave coming, but I would love it if you could take us back a little bit in terms of what were the goals when you first started out, and then how much has it changed?
Kathryn de Wit:
No, we didn’t expect quite the tsunami, but we were hoping for like a medium wave.
Joe Coldebella:
So be careful what you wish for.
Kathryn de Wit:
I know, right? This is the best of circumstances. But when we started this work five years ago, it really was because we had observed that states were starting to spend money on deployment programs. And that was coming on the heels of the American Recovery Act. All the spending that came along with that, about $4.2 billion just through commerce. There were active federal programs elsewhere in the federal government. So, you know, we kind of looked at that, scratched our heads, and said, you know, “Why are states stepping into this? Isn’t this problem covered by the feds?”
Well, we checked it out. And what we learned was, no, it wasn’t. I think more specifically, we learned through that state research that states really were developing programs that were responsive to local needs. They were reflective of what is a very diverse and dynamic telecommunications industry.
There are state laws in place that vary across the country. That means that solutions also needed to differ across the country. And additionally, going back to our earlier discussion about educating folks, lawmakers were coming to us and saying, “Yeah, the technology is great, fine, good. You know, let’s talk about Middle Mile and Last Mile. But I really want to talk to you about the economic opportunity that I think broadband is going to bring to my community. I want to talk to you about access to healthcare. I want to talk to you about education.”
So we had rural lawmakers and largely conservative lawmakers who really were in favor of amending the policy to ensure that connections were not only getting out into communities, but they were of a speed of equality that was going to be useful for all those future uses. And they were spending money on it. So that’s where we started five years ago. COVID hit, and it accelerated a lot of momentum that was already happening on the ground. Some folks say, Joe, you know, this, “Oh, COVID happened and all of a sudden everybody discovered the digital divide. Like we all came together to solve it.”
That’s not true. This work has been going on for a very long time. And states were already at the forefront and really focusing on sustainable solutions to getting this done.
Joe Coldebella:
You know what? It’s interesting because I think what it did is it focused it like a laser beam, right? So now we are like, “Oh, hey, thanks. You finally noticed us.”
There was a problem. The pandemic compounded it and kind of went from an esoteric problem to one that everyone was like, “Okay, we totally get it. We should have listened to you guys sooner.”
I remember talking to Heather Gold and she said, “We’ve been talking about the same problem since 2006.
If I could go back a little bit, you were talking about rural communities and conservative lawmakers wanting broadband. It’s interesting because I think it’s probably because their communities were shrinking. And they’re realizing that they need to jumpstart their economy and move along with the rest of the country. It’s almost ironic in the sense that in a lot of ways now rural communities are becoming an opportunity because people want to move back there. So it’s an amazing place we’re in right now.
Kathryn de Wit:
It is. I’m sitting here chuckling thinking about some of the conversations that I’ve had with rural lawmakers who get very hot under the collar when they say, “Ah, rural communities don’t have the opportunity. That’s a lie.”
You know, and they then list off all the natural resources and just the overall benefits of coming back to a rural community. But then they stop and say, “But this doesn’t matter if you don’t have broadband, because then you can’t have jobs.”
There are expectations of a younger generation who come back and say, “I want the conveniences that connectivity affords.”
So that’s really what drove a lot of these lawmakers to focus on broadband. They were saying, “Our communities are dying because people don’t want to stay here. They can’t stay here.” And that’s a hard thing to face.
Joe Coldebella:
Yeah. I was in Wilson, North Carolina a few weeks ago, and they said that they had a small local business that did 90% of their commerce locally. They got high-speed internet, now it’s flipped. 10% is local, and 90% is now around the country and around the globe, which is just amazing. It’s just like, wow. It’s right there, and it’s like the best use case possible.
Kathryn de Wit:
Yeah. I’m a military spouse. My husband is now in the Marine Corps Reserves, but he was on active duty. And this is something that I talk about with military spouses. Some of these folks live in very remote places with not great infrastructure. But it’s difficult when you’re moving around across the country every few years to maintain a job. That’s a whole separate podcast for what needs to be changed there. We can come back to that. But they are capitalizing on e-commerce to bring in income to their households, that’s a stable job that they can keep no matter where they live. But you must have the Internet to do it.
Joe Coldebella:
And you know you were on the talk today, and I thought you just crystallized it so much with just such a simple stat: four to one. I would love it if you could share that with everybody.
Kathryn de Wit:
Yeah. So I can’t take credit for it. That’s Roberto Gallardo, and I think Brian Whitaker may have contributed to that too. So if he’s here you should grab him.
Joe Coldebella:
We have had Roberto on the podcast.
Kathryn de Wit:
He’s the best. So Roberto and his team re-did a study a few years ago looking at cooperatives in Indiana. And what they found was that for every dollar the state put in, not only into broadband networks but also into broadband adoption programs, the State got between $3 and $4 back. Roberto rounds up to four. So I too will round up to four. So that’s a four-to-one return, which is unbelievable. Think about what that could do to supercharge rural economies across the country. And, sorry, you like numbers, so I’m going to throw another one at you. Ohio State did a study a few years ago and they found that, and this was extrapolating data, so GDP, which I don’t want to explain but they extrapolated that there could be about a 1.9 billion return over 15 years for rural Ohio communities. 1.9 billion over 15 years.
Joe Coldebella:
Wow. That’s amazing.
Kathryn de Wit:
Right. In one state.
Joe Coldebella:
Right, exactly. I think that you also made the case for the “why”. Ultimately, that’s really what matters. Why are we doing this?
Kathryn de Wit:
It’s true. You heard me talk about this today, but that’s why these five-year action plans are so important that states are writing right now because that is focusing on the “why”. And that really was also the hallmark of the State programs that we did research on in the early years of my project. And it is a focus not only on the needs that we have for connections and affordability and skills. Okay fine. But it is, what are we going to use this for? How does this fit into our state’s larger vision around economic development, telehealth, health, aging in place, education, population attraction, and retention? And it’s going to map out how the state broadband office is going to work with other state agencies, partners, and sectors in order to achieve that vision.
That’s that type of goal setting that I think is not only important for building buy-in, but it’s also important for measuring progress. Are we getting to where we want it to be? How are we going to measure that over time? And that will also, quite frankly, help with ensuring that we can help lawmakers fill financial gaps when the federal money goes away. Because it’s not going to solve all of the problems of the digital divide, but hopefully it will get us over the connectivity challenge.
Joe Coldebella:
If you don’t have a target, you don’t know what to hit. So these state broadband office plans now, so are there going to be 50? Will they follow a template, or will everyone go to the beat of their own drum?
Kathryn de Wit:
Well, it’s kind of a balance of both, right? Because, you know, there are practices that we’d like to see them use as the Pew Charitable Trusts’. No, I’m kidding. Uh, well, not really actually.
So there isn’t a specific template that NTIA is asking states to follow, but there are common practices that will be reflected in the plan regarding, you know, vision setting; how are you measuring; the stakeholders that they’re bringing in; and the way that you’re collecting that data.
Joe Coldebella:
No, I think that’s vital. I think what you should do is draft off others. If you see something that they’re doing, it’s like, “Oh listen, California is doing X, Y, and Z, which is fantastic. We should adopt that for our state.”
Plus, it gives everyone a collective sort of vision, which is important as well.
Kathryn de Wit:
It is. And I think that there’s a balance that you want to strike there between making sure that it’s not cookie-cutter across states. You don’t want that. But also the reality is that states are operating on a very short timeline right now. And so they do need to produce these documents. They do need to be meeting deadlines because right now they’re under a 270-day shot clock for receiving their planning funds till when they have to submit their five-year action plan. Pro tip Joe, most of those are going to go in by August and September. So just keep your eyes open.
Joe Coldebella:
They’re sort of working towards it. They’re not going to wait till the last night to study for the exam.
Kathryn de Wit:
Oh no, you can’t. There’s no way you could. I mean, honestly, this is a condensed window for a planning process to begin with, but they are not waiting till the last minute. We’ve already seen the state’s release draft plans ahead of schedule. So it’s very exciting.
Joe Coldebella:
That’s great too. This is such a complex issue. I was in a conversation yesterday and I was like, how are these folks going to get it done? It’s going to be amazing.
Kathryn de Wit:
It’s a lot of brass knuckle work.
Joe Coldebella:
So just to go back to the state broadband offices, it’s really important for folks to interact with them. I would love it if you could say, you know, just a few words on that because, I think, to emphasize your voice matters.
Kathryn de Wit:
Yes. And now more than ever. This is a very critical moment for all types of folks, internet service providers, community partners, and advocates to come to the table and talk to states. Now how you do that is really going to be dependent on the states. But the first thing you can do is sign up for communications from your state broadband office. They’re hosting listening sessions all throughout their states.
It’s going to vary by state. You’ve got some states like Texas and Louisiana that are getting out into every single county or parish in the state. There are others that may have a little bit less density of population. They’re kind of consolidating efforts. So the best thing that you can do is sign up for communications and updates from your office and show up because the train is moving fast, which is a good thing. But to make your voice count, you actually need to make your voice heard.
Joe Coldebella:
We’ve interviewed a bunch of folks from state broadband offices, and they are amazing. They’re awesome.
Kathryn de Wit:
They’re hustling.
Joe Coldebella:
Yeah. And they want to help everyone. They’re there for you to use as a resource. So I would love it if we could touch a little bit on the ACP program. Is that something that’s going to be included with these five-year plans? Or is it a separate issue? Because I know that there’s a funding component to it as well.
Kathryn de Wit:
Oh, no, it’s all related. Participation in an affordability program is a prerequisite for funding for BEAD. So we’ll see ACP come up in a couple of places in this phase of planning that we’re in right now. One is in the five-year action plan; the second is in the initial proposal. The third is in the digital equity plans that states are also drafting or drafting concurrently. And we’ll see ACP referenced in a couple of ways. One is just the eligible population, and current enrollment rates, but also in talking about the relationship between that subsidy and the financial case for providers to deploy to 100% of the population. It is defraying the cost of operations. That is why ACP is so valuable. You cannot take the deployment money unless you participate in an affordability program. And you must have both.
Joe Coldebella:
Yeah. Ultimately, the internet is the great equalizer. The chance for opportunity is there. Access is just so important. Let’s talk about BEAD. For those who are listening to the podcast, there was an announcement that was just made yesterday. What were some initial impressions? Did anything surprise you?
Kathryn de Wit:
No. Sorry, I’m pausing because I really am thinking to give you an honest answer there. And I don’t think anything surprised me. I do think that the numbers themselves are just sort of eye-popping, even though I’ve been talking about $42 billion for, you know, two years now for state programs. But when you actually see the allocations, it is a staggering amount of money. And so it is giving me pause about administration, but it also is a good reminder too about just how expensive it is to serve some of these communities. Look at Texas’ allocation of about $3 billion. Texas is a big state. I’m not sure if you know that.
Joe Coldebella:
I have driven through it. It takes some time for sure.
Kathryn de Wit:
Sure. It takes some time. It takes some time. But then you also look at states like South Carolina and Minnesota, where folks may have expected those numbers to be a little bit higher. But they may not be as high because those states have been putting in quite a significant number of resources towards solving this problem. So, you know, in some cases those lower-than-expected numbers, it’s all relative. It’s still about $650 million. But, you know, those can signal good things. The state is already well on its way to closing the availability gap. Now we’re going to focus on affordability. Now we’re going to focus on skills. So hopefully that’s how it all pans out.
Joe Coldebella:
You know, I just looked at the list in terms of the funds in general. And I think they did a relatively good job making sure that the states that have massive rural communities were given those. I’m in the state of Connecticut. Obviously, our outlay was a lot smaller. But also, we are a densely populated state. We’re in a state that’s pretty well connected. So it’s like one of those things where I think that they did a good job in terms of distributing the funds.
Kathryn de Wit:
Yeah. To be honest with you, I’m still absorbing the formula allocation itself because it’s a little complicated. But I think you make a good point. And what will be interesting to look at with states like Connecticut or Rhode Island — Nevada too, for that matter, which I’m talking about in terms of concentration density of population areas — are how states then target funds to get at the communities that are unserved or underserved. Connecticut’s affordable housing program is something that we’re really interested in and excited to see how it plays out.
Joe Coldebella:
You know that’s a phenomenal point because my big fear is that, you know, people sort of know what’s coming down the pike in terms of just how much data and volume is going to be happening. And I’m afraid that those who get pushed to the back of the line are going to get pushed to the back of the line again. It’s just going to be so frustrating. You have got to be vigilant.
Kathryn de Wit:
Maybe some people will be vigilant, but diligent too. And I think that that’s really where a planning process and the overlap and complementary nature of especially the five-year action plan and the Digital Equity Act. That’s where I’m hoping we’ll be able to help ensure that those folks don’t get pushed to the back of the line. Capital Projects Fund, which is the American Rescue Plan Act program administered by the treasury. That is infinitely more flexible than the BEAD program itself, but BEAD, like Capital Projects, does offer states the — it gives them the authority to do things like cover affordable housing communities. The resources weren’t available to do that before. Now it is. So being very diligent is important. Making sure that voices are heard is important, but again, that’s why we have to use these plans as a way of measuring and evaluating program performance.
Joe Coldebella:
Awesome. So you didn’t have any surprises? Is there anything that you’re excited about?
Kathryn de Wit:
I’m excited to get to work. I mean, we have been, sorry I say that and it’s like, oh, we’ve just been twiddling our thumbs. We haven’t; please cut that out.
Joe Coldebella:
That’s the warmup. We haven’t even started the marathon.
Kathryn de Wit:
Right? No, we haven’t. I mean, it feels like it has been a marathon. But we’re just getting started now. And I think from a research perspective, I am very excited to see how states respond to what are some unique and complicated deployment challenges. We are excited to work with states who are already thinking about how to structure their funds whether it’s around line extensions or it’s around the match requirement. How are they really thinking about surveying these very hard-to-serve and hard-to-reach populations?
Joe Coldebella:
I know that the threshold is 100 over 20. I struggle with that. And I understand that there’s harder to reach places, but then ultimately this is the technology that must last for 40 years.
Kathryn de Wit:
I mean, I would’ve preferred for the minimum to be set higher as well. I think though, we are still doing education with policymakers around why building to that higher standard is a better use of public funds and why we do need to be thinking about building for that 20-year, 30-, or 40-year timeline rather than a five-year timeline or three years ago timeline.
Joe Coldebella:
Sure. Are there any other challenges that you see off in the distance? As I walk these halls, I hear that people are excited to work with their broadband offices. But these folks are getting a ton of money all at once. It must be just like, “Wow, what did I get myself into?”
Kathryn de Wit:
The state broadband offices, directors, and staff are doing the Lord’s work right now. It’s a hard, hard job. They are catching it from all sides. But they are committed to the work. They’re excited about the work. And they’re excited, I think, to think bigger. It’s not just about meeting federal minimums and minimum requirements. It is about how we make this work for our people and for, you know, our goals as a state. When it comes to the actual capacity issue of state offices, though, they’re small.
Some states are limited in statute by how many people that they can hire. A couple of states, Louisiana and Texas are the only two that are coming to mind right now. But there are more where they’re capped on the number of state employees that they can hire. Now, they can bring in consultants. But, you know, that’s a temporary solution. That’s a concern of mine as states not having the people, the hands, and the brains to get all of this done and at a timely window without completely burning out.
Joe Coldebella:
Sure. And so you bring up Louisiana and they’re sort of the canary in the coal mine as they’re the first ones through. Is it good to be first? What’s the saying? It’s like, the second mouse gets the cheese or whatever. I don’t know.
Kathryn de Wit:
I don’t know. You’ll have to talk to Louisiana about how they feel about being first. I’m sure that they will say it’s exciting to be first.
Joe Coldebella:
It gives them access to supply chains and all these different things that are possible later down the line.
Kathryn de Wit:
Well, potentially. It depends on how fast NTIA approves documents. We’ll see how it plays out. I think that the team in Louisiana is trying to work very hard and very quickly, but we’re not seeing the tradeoff in terms of quality and strategy. They are thinking about how they can capitalize on the allowability within the statute. And thinking specifically about their focus on resilience.
And they are pulling lessons in from Hurricane Ida about how to make sure that their networks are more resilient, that where they can, they’re redundant. They’re using different types of technologies to make sure these networks aren’t only just there and they exist, but they’re going to last and they’re going to operate in a national emergency. So I think it’s exciting to see Louisiana work hard to accelerate their work, but also focus very deeply on what the state needs. It’s unique telecommunications needs as well.
Joe Coldebella:
Kathryn, this has been a phenomenal visit. Before we wrap it up, do you folks at Pew have any events coming up?
Kathryn de Wit:
Nothing I can say publicly yet but stay tuned.
Joe Coldebella:
Okay. All right. So stay tuned folks. Is there anything else that we missed that you’d love to address? Or is it ongoing? We would love to have you on the podcast again. You’re a great guest.
Kathryn de Wit:
Thank you. That’s very kind of you. I’m always happy to come back and talk to you. I really enjoy it. It’s always like a conversation and not an interview, which means you’re just good at your job. But I think the last thing that I would say is that we need to keep ACP funded. If we let that lapse, we not only let about 19 million Americans, we close down that program for all those families and households, but we threaten investments that have already been made in Capital Projects and BEAD. So the more that we can increase certainty around that program, the better off we’ll be in the long run.
Joe Coldebella:
And you know, it’s like ringing the bell saying, “Hey ACP!” Because the funds are not going to run out right away, but you have got to get it before that critical point because then it becomes a scramble. And it’s something that we just can’t let slip through.
Kathryn de Wit:
Definitely. I think the more that we can talk about what this means monthly for households. It’s a difference in groceries. It’s a difference in a gas bill; it’s in for your car. $30 a month does make a difference in the pockets of middle- and low-income families. And we need to be pulling those stories forward more and more often.
Joe Coldebella:
It’s a great place to end it. Kathryn, thank you so very much.
Kathryn de Wit:
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.
Joe Coldebella:
All right. That’s going to wrap up this episode of The Broadband Bunch. Until next time, we’ll see you guys later.
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