The following transcript has been edited for length and readability. Listen to the entire discussion here on The Broadband Bunch. The Broadband Bunch is sponsored by ETI Software.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Broadband Bunch. This is Pete Pizzutillo and I am joined today by the CEO of LS Networks, Randy Brogle. Randy, thanks for joining us today.
Randy Brogle:
Oh, my pleasure. It’s great to be here.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, I mean we have a lot to dig into, but set the table. It would be interesting to get a little bit of background on LS Networks, and what you guys all do.
Randy Brogle:
Absolutely. So Lightspeed Network’s mission is to bridge the digital divide and improve people’s lives by bringing high-speed internet to underserved towns and communities in the Pacific Northwest. I know that’s a mouthful of current buzzwords, but LS Networks was literally founded 17 years ago by five rural electric coops and a Native American tribe to improve connectivity to the rural communities they serve. So it has been our mission and our mandate frankly from day one. And since then, we’ve grown to have more than 7,500 route miles of fiber delivering services to 126 communities across Oregon and Washington and helping to bring better internet into those communities.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, it sounds like a joke. Five coops and a tribe walk into a community kind of thing, but I’m unsure where to go from there thanks for that. And one of the things I was looking at is your background, we talked a little bit about this and you got an interesting journey. I would love to unpack it a little bit. How did you end up here today running LS Networks?
Randy Brogle:
Well, I would say it’s probably had many twists and turns, but I started my career in the mid-’90s when the sea link industry was just emerging and building fiber was relatively new. And I started out sticking poles for site surveys, making ready surveys, and putting conduits in the ground. And was fortunate enough, basically, in my first 16 years I worked under and with a lot of great people at MFS and Level 3. So it was a great training ground for many people I know and many different companies from hyper scalers to small companies. I just came out of INCOMPAS and there are so many people you see there that you worked with 20-some years ago.
And then I made a jump into the not-for-profit world because I was really interested in that area. But I spent three years at a company called Internet2, so it’s not for profit, but focused on networking for universities and research labs around the country and I had the good opportunity to help them implement a large BTOP grant they won. We were the first network in the country to have coast-to-coast 100 GB waves turned up in about 2011 and 2012 timeframe. So really proud of that.
But then I’d call it the Build Bug, came back to me having started actually building things. So I spent some time at Zayo helping them establish a long-haul dark fiber business and starting to build a lot of new long-haul routes along with a lot of fiber to the tower projects.
And then I transitioned over to Hargray, which was actually my first real deep entrée into rural connectivity in rural communities, in this case, in the Southeast and how do you build fiber into those arenas?
And then last, Meta actually launched a new project in 2019 that was focused on getting unique fiber routes between their data centers around the country. But those are largely in rural areas and when you build a long-haul route, it mostly passes through rural areas. So there were a lot of projects and things we were evaluating and how we could also help bring better connectivity into those communities that we are building fiber through.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, I mean that’s quite a journey. You got to see a lot of different aspects of the industry. But I have to ask, why move from Meta, a big brand name and one of the biggest companies in the world to LS Networks? What is it that personally that you were seeking out or looking for?
Randy Brogle:
Yeah, I know, absolutely. I mean, I basically went from a company generating huge amounts of cash with a hundred thousand employees to a company with a hundred employees who was generating a little less cash than Meta was, right? But the one thing that really led me to do it, was the opportunity to become the CEO of a company. I talked to Mark and he wasn’t … Actually, I didn’t really talk to him, but I don’t think he was willing to pass the mantle over to me to be the CEO of Meta just yet.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Maybe now he will be.
Randy Brogle:
But to me, the real reason was I enjoy building things and spending. Frankly, I worked my way through college doing construction. I’ve built a lot of networks over the years, so that’s something that I value and enjoy a lot. But the other thing is the rural connectivity, as I spent my time at Internet2 when I really first got exposed to that, overseeing something called the K20 project, trying to help bring better content and connectivity into elementary and high schools.
And then my time at Hargray, it’s something I’ve become very passionate about. And as I look at the later part of my career, I’ve been blessed and fortunate to be able to have some choices and focus on things that are very important to me in terms of my higher values and how I want to contribute and give back to our society.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, that’s awesome. I mean we talk about that a lot in terms of the brain drain, people aging out from, as you mentioned, folks that have been in this business for a lifetime. But we’re also starting to see that swarming in from other industries to help solve this problem. And I think it’s a great example that we can attract and retain the best talent that’s out there regardless if they grew up in the telco space or not. So you have any thoughts on that and do you think we’re going to get more influx of those folks?
Randy Brogle:
I hope so. I think as you look at a lot of the younger generation, people come out of college right now, social justice is something that’s very high in their profile and talking about ESG programs at companies and we’re very big on that and feel strongly about it. And so I think that’s what we do, what LS Networks does and many other companies around the country that are smaller ISPs focused on these communities, bring some appeal to them. You can come in and you can really make a difference in these communities that you serve, that you live in, and bring that social justice around or bring that social justice to reality in many different ways.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, I mean, closing the divide and health equity. There are a lot of things that people are starting to realize that broadband is an underpinning and enabler of.
What surprised you the most about making that big jump? I know you’ve worked for different-sized companies, but specifically what at LS Networks in the region that you’re serving now surprised you the most?
Randy Brogle:
I don’t say anything has surprised me because I think I went in with my eyes wide open and a big fan of being on the lookout for predictable surprises. So I knew there were things there that was going to maybe not be what I expected, but I was sort of anticipating that.
But I think overall, it’s just when you get into these small towns and communities, it’s a tough business. You go from a company like Meta that is really generating a lot of free cash flow and you get in these small companies, it’s about how it’s a really tough business and a lot of people are contributing wearing many, many hats and you got to really, I don’t want to say scrape by, but you got to really think every day about how you’re managing your costs, your expenses to make sure we can fulfill our mission and be profitable while we’re still helping to serve these communities.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, it’s interesting. So how do you as a leader step into a company that’s been around for almost 20 years, starting with that community-based roots servicing the business but moving into serving your communities better reaching out to the residential side, which is kind of different than what you had been doing?
Randy Brogle:
Yeah, well I was very fortunate while the company was founded by the rural electric coops in April of 2021, an investment firm named Instar Investments acquired LS Networks. And so I had the good fortune of stepping into that opportunity with some new funding and financing that those coops just weren’t able to really provide on an ongoing basis. And part of the reason I think they felt it was important to sell it is because they felt this is a great asset and network, but to really fulfill its mission, it needed some additional infusion of capital that they couldn’t provide.
So the long and short of it is, I guess, in the great world of capitalism, we felt strongly that in order to really serve all parts of a community and bridge that divide, you can’t just focus on the cell towers and the schools and the hospitals and the businesses, but you also need to really serve all of the residents and communities.
So we were fortunate that with their backing, we were able to acquire a company we announced in late September an agreement with “PocketiNet” which is a small provider in Walla Walla, Washington. And so they have a great, great footprint but also a great, great platform. So we’re going to invest heavily to expand fiber in Walla Walla College place, all their surrounding communities, but we’re also going to then take that platform and have that help us go into those 126 communities where we serve businesses and carriers and allow us to help bring better internet to all the residences in those communities.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, so that’s interesting. You acquihire the culture and the experience to be able to service the residents, but it also opens you up to some of the other challenges that happen on that resident side. So support model may change, competition, I know you guys are focusing on underserved and unserved and may not be dealing with that, but what are your thoughts in terms of how you teach a company to prepare for that, turning that culture into and scaling that culture really, right? So PocketiNet has been successful, PocketiNet, sorry. What are your thoughts on helping your folks figure out how to do that at scale?
Randy Brogle:
Well, the great news is I’ve stepped into a company with a great culture and a lot of very passionate people who have been eager and ready to go and make that leap into the residential space. They’ve sort of been asking about it and clamoring for it and have seen some opportunities come and go in the past where we didn’t step up to that opportunity. So in terms of mindset and receptiveness, the team is very excited about it.
But to your point, it is a different model. It is a different flow and support system. And again, that’s why we feel that PocketiNet has the right tools, the right platforms to help support that, and why we felt that was important rather than trying to build it from the ground up and help get that in place. We’ll need to scale it over time as we continue to add more passings and hit more communities. And yeah, we’re working through some of those processes.
But PocketiNet has a great platform, good tools, and good systems, both in terms of their installation practices working with the Calix platform that they leverage on how to make it a good experience for the customer with the apps and the tools in terms of parental controls and security and other add-ons. So they’ve got a really strong platform that we help those consumers along the way and reduces that level of support required.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, I mean you touched on a couple of things there in terms of that managed services is really the next differentiation, but more of an awareness. I think people are shifting from access to services applications if you will. So some folks feel like the satellite companies can provide access, but what kind of services are coming on top of those things?
So are you all thinking about residential and enterprise level, community level services and what are some of the things you think about? Because in the past we’ve talked to folks that have been burned by some of those relationships that they’ve onboarded certain consumer premise equipment that just didn’t follow through. It added support complexities. Just trying to help others thinking about managed services.
So we talked about the Calix event and they’re rolling out 12 different managed services and for some of those people that are in an advanced state, it makes sense, but adopting the Arlo security equipment or getting rid of Eero and moving to Plume, there’s just a lot of noise in that space that people are trying to figure out, “Hey, who should we get in bed with? How are we going to support this thing? And what kind of lessons were learned?” I’m just trying to pull that out of the conversation.
Randy Brogle:
Absolutely, yeah, I think when we look at what you’ve talked about regarding the managed services and the platforms that are out there, I do think there’s a higher degree of integration and support required today. I mean a few years ago without some of the wireless growth, I mean the Wi-Fi growth and all the IoT and the house and things like that, it was a little easier to just roll up and you could pick any type of equipment and plug in the internet in a way people would go. But now when you think about, especially after the COVID pandemic, the number of people working from home, the number of devices they’re using, and the growth of IoT, you do need to be thoughtful and think about how your Wi-Fi solution looks like. We can provide one GB or even two GB of symmetrical internet into someone’s house, but if their Wi-Fi system is not configured correctly if there’re too many devices overloading that system, their experience is only as good as it is on their device. It doesn’t matter what is coming in and out of the house, it matters what they’re getting as an end-user experience.
So it is really important. We’re being very thoughtful and cautious, but I do think there are some companies that have really invested heavily and are being forward-thinking in how to help these smaller providers like a PocketiNet or an LS Networks really have the same capabilities and platforms that you can get in a larger city from an Xfinity or some of the other big companies.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, I think that’s pretty important there. The consumer expectation is shifted, people being, as you mentioned, having self-service apps, being able to manage their account without having to call in, or just a lot of the capabilities that they see but has been wanting to have access to it. I see that as a kind of pressure coming from the consumer, but as you said, you need to have not only the reliable bandwidth at the right scale, but the support mechanisms when people call in and say, “Hey, my laptop’s not working, or this iPad’s not working, or my security camera’s not working.” Now you got a whole other routine for debugging and supporting those calls to manage subscriber satisfaction.
Randy Brogle:
Yeah, and we’ve kind of built our model around that. PocketiNet specifically built its model around that because they do want to provide that high level of service. There are many companies who are pushing and competing strictly on the price of their internet, and it might be an asymmetrical service where they advertise only the download speeds and not the upload speeds. It may not have the same quality, it may not be fiber-based, so there are more outages and events with rain or snow or other things like that. So we really focus on the value we bring in that customer experience to make sure people not only have really good internet speeds and performance but also then able to have the right platforms, tools, and support to make sure they can leverage that in their house.
Pete Pizzutillo:
You’re listening to the Broadband Bunch and we’ve been speaking with Randy Brogle, he’s the CEO of LS Networks. Randy, I wanted to switch a little bit to supply chain, cost, and that type of thing. So everyone’s talking about the inflation impact on materials and the issues on getting supplies or chips or cables, whatever it may be, as well as just access to good people to help you tackle this problem. So as you guys have grown, as you’ve onboarded PocketiNet, what are some of the lessons that you’ve learned in terms of just trying to help prepare or ready yourselves for those challenges?
Randy Brogle:
Yeah, it’s definitely a very real thing out there at INCOMPAS this week I had the good fortune of being on a panel with a couple of my peers from around the country and talking about these issues. So hearing their perspective was really, really nice as well. So yeah, one, it’s a very real thing that’s happening and I think there’s obviously supply chain issues from shortages, but there’s also a huge amount of demand for fiber, for conduit, and for people, as you see this growth in this, I don’t know if the explosion is the right word of fiber builds through a lot of the government funding programs as well as private funding.
So I think there are a couple of things. Once, again, because of our position with strong backing from our owners, we are able to pre-purchase and look ahead a little further than many small companies are able to. So we have placed orders on fiber, on conduit, on equipment, on supplies that are maybe a little more than what we would’ve been able to manage and maintain prior to that. And then it’s also looking at alternate channels. We have some of these where their delivery dates are pushed out. We ordered things in early 2022 and it was supposed to be delivered a year later and now it’s going to be 18 months later. So we’ve reached out and found some alternate providers who can get us that fiber in time and without too much of a cost impact and things like that. So there’s a lot going on.
The other part of it I think is what we’re looking at in terms of labor and resources and being able to get the right people to do the work we actually just acquired an engineering firm to help allow us to insource more of our design and engineering work. So then it was one of our main vendors. We have a long relationship with them and so now that team will be focused entirely on LS Networks projects and not have to worry about managing and juggling other customers that they’re trying to support. So that was one step we’re looking at insourcing more of our construction resources and have added directional boring capabilities as well as aerial crew so we can, again, it’s the cost, but it’s also just the availability and time.
And the last part is then we still need to maintain both the staff at those entities, and our own staff. So how do we keep recruiting people and developing and training people?
I was very fortunate along with a lot of group of people in the mid-’90s that came into telecom who knew nothing about telecom out of college and were trained in developing people and invested time and money in them. So we’re also looking at that as well and had some conversations with the economic development in one of the counties we serve about looking at some apprenticeship programs through the community colleges and things like that to help bring in both the talent and resources we need.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, and it’s interesting. I do love that part of the challenge that we’re facing is it does force us to get creative, unique partnerships and get on the same page. There’s a lot more talk about training and training at high school and college level apprenticeships, standardization, that kind of stuff. So I think long term, there are a lot of benefits there, but I think being creative and partnering are definitely interesting, seeing some interesting things happen.
One thing, so you mentioned you guys are privately funded and supported. There’s a lot of funding flowing in here as everybody knows. The question is with the mounting costs, the time it takes to actually get stuff done, and the things that may slow it down, I mean, do you think we’re going to close this divide eventually?
Randy Brogle:
I do, and I think this is the time to do it. And while there are many negative things that happened due to COVID, I think the one positive thing is it’s really created this momentum and support towards what I’m calling others may have already coined this, but the fiberization of America. The electrification of America started with the passing of the Rural Electric Act in 1936. And it took really two decades to really get electricity to virtually everywhere in the country. I know there are people who still don’t have electricity today, so I’m not discounting that, but a huge percentage of this country has electricity. And so I think it’ll be a similar concept. It’s not going to happen immediately. It’s not going to happen in three years or five years or some of these government programs are set for eight to 10 years. I think it’ll be more than a decade out. But I think with the momentum we have now and what we’re building towards, it will definitely happen over time.
And I know I say fiberization, but I think one thing, not everyone will always have fiber in their house. That’s the difference between electricity and the internet. You have to really build to someone’s house, I guess unless they do solar and have a battery array. So I guess, you don’t need to wire everyone’s house, but the same with fiber. You want to get the fiber as far as you can and then there are wireless solutions that take it further. That might be a satellite, that might be fixed wireless, and then over time you push the fiber out further and then you extend the wireless out further. So I do think we’ll see that happening as you keep expanding out with fiber, and keep expanding out with the wireless and then there’s always a place for the satellite to help support that as well.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah and the fiberization point is a good one. I think what’s happened in the last two years or so, three years or so, is we stopped fighting over what method of delivery was the best one. And the BEAD definitely puts some emphasis on that. And you know, even see go to Cable-Tec and some of the cable shows, they’re rebranding away from cable, not because they’re not servicing cable, but their future is really on how do they leverage cable with docks as 4.0s as much as possible but grow on the fiber side.
And I think that’s important as an industry because we had been fighting over these different flavors and there are a lot of new entrants in the marketplace. I mean a lot of communities think about all the money that’s flowing through the states and you have these uneducated, not uneducated in a general sense, but around this space that is now responsible for managing, dispersing that money. And so we talk up with this Ph.D. level to these folks and kind of alienate them when those are people that we need to really bring along to help us close this thing. Do you know what I’m saying?
Randy Brogle:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I agree. There are a lot of people who throw a lot of buzzwords out there and talk a lot and when you think about the average consumer, they don’t fully appreciate it. They just want fast internet in their house. That’s what they need and understand. And a lot of companies advertise speeds, but it’s not symmetrical. They don’t talk about various latency or concurrency issues they have in their neighborhoods. So those are really if you think about not just the internet today, but as we move into a more the AR and VR concept, the metaverse, yeah, I’ll drop the metaverse term in and I obviously had some insight into what we think that looks like in my prior employer, but there’s really three key things that you need.
You need symmetrical speeds in these houses that are well above the definition of broadband. I don’t even use the term broadband anymore because meeting the FCC definition of broadband is not enough. It’s more like a hundred as a minimum and over time that’s going to grow. But it’s symmetrical speeds, it’s low latency. And again, it’s not just low latency to wherever your internet provider is, but it’s low latency to the other users you’re collaborating with, whether that’s across town or across the world.
And then the last one is the term they call concurrency, which is about how many people can concurrently be using the platform or that system. And that can happen in someone’s house with the number of devices they have and making sure they can support all of their IoT. But it also can happen in a collaborative platform. If you go to a virtual concert or even a virtual conference, can you support hundreds or thousands of users as opposed to hundreds of users? So those are the three key things.
And I think on the network side, and especially the networks that are the edge networks into the home, the symmetrical speeds is the biggest one that the local provider controls the latency to some degree, making sure they’ve got their network architected correctly. But some of that is a broader internet issue. And then concurrency I think is really on some of the apps and platforms that people are using.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, listen, my other co-host, Joe, and I both have the headsets and we use this boxing app and we’ve only been able to box these bots, but they said the next version I’ll be able to beat him up virtually. So I’m looking forward to having that. That’s all I need to get to. So while we’re looking ahead, where are we in 24 months? There’s all this money. There’s uncertainty. Taking your best guess, how much progress have we made in the past 24 months or the next 24 months?
Randy Brogle:
Yeah, well I think it’s a long race. We’re in a marathon, not a sprint. So I think there’s a lot of money coming in off the sidelines, both government money but also private money. Private money wants to take advantage of federal funding. And so I think in any industry when you see that, you know you have a lot of people out there and a lot of people are trying to do, I’ll call them land grabs and jumping opportunities that are new players, new entrants, and haven’t been in this space. And so I think you’ll see progress, but I think they’ll probably, and I don’t know if it’s in 24 months, but at some point, you’re going to see some of these companies running into some challenges and problems when some of the initial buzz and excitement runs out or they built the network and now you’ve got to support it.
So the way I think about it, there are three key things to have really good internet somewhere. First, you got to get the internet to that location. And LS networks have a 7,500-mile backbone so we can do that to most of Oregon and Washington and beyond.
And then you got to distribute the internet to all of these people in these locations and that’s where a lot of this money is going to go. People are running to take the money and spend it and build it to get the network around. And some of them have really good experience to know how to do it cost-effectively and some don’t.
And then the third piece of that is you need to operate that network. And so I think that’s where you’re going to start to see when you’ve got 24 months and your first two years are building the network and now you’re turning on. You passed 5,000 homes and now you have 4,000 customers. Do your systems, your platforms, and your people, can you support that? If you didn’t build that access network correctly and so you have operational issues or if you’re not able to have the right platforms and support your customers, there will be people who struggle.
So long story short, I think over time, whether it’s 24 months, 36 months, you’ll start to see I think some consolidation and some of those companies struggling and others stepping in to try to take that over and be more effective at operating it.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, no, that’s a great response. I mean one of the concerns that we have is just right now that it’s a gold rush. So people are land grabbing, but it’s the opportunity to design for sustainability in affordability. And there are not a lot of shared services that are being mandated. I know not to get in the whole open access debate, but that that’s my concern is that if there’s going to be this rush of all these very bespoke proprietary systems that some people will figure out and some people won’t. And then how do you roll that stuff up? How are you thinking about that?
And yet, my last piece is it’s a very equipment-heavy-minded business and it’s a software world. So that’s what I get concerned about. I think there are a lot of economies of scale that can be taken advantage of with the right platforms in place so that you can do all this stuff, but we lack standards. We have a lot of legacy systems that we’re trying to connect together. So I think you’re right. There’s a lot of thrashing that’s coming.
Randy Brogle:
Yeah, absolutely. And you hit on, there’s a couple, my colleagues joke when they hear certain things and I get fired up and one is going to hear asymmetrical internet speeds, but the other one is hitting around what I’ll call closed proprietary system.
So I am a big fan of how you create open systems interoperability is really important. And you saw lots of advances of that with SDN over the last, I don’t know what it’s been, 10, 15 years. But on some of the CPE and some of the edge stuff, you’re seeing a lot of that proprietary and is coming back in and these vendors want to lock you in and force you to buy everything from them. And so I do think it would be great to be able to see that opened up and make it more interoperable so you can choose and shift based on different applications or as people make different advances on that software side and make sure you’re not locked into someone’s hardware and so you can’t get into the latest upgrades and improvements on software and capabilities.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, and it’s funny because we talked about this in our earlier call about the maturity of this marketplace, but coming from Facebook, I mean they basically gamified social interaction that they quickly realized that data was gold. And so I just wonder if people are building systems with that in mind, right?
Randy Brogle:
Yeah.
Pete Pizzutillo:
We’ll see. Right. So all right, let’s go back in time. We looked ahead, let’s go back in time. You’ve jumped around. What would you tell yourself, the younger version of yourself, say 20 years ago about any advice?
Randy Brogle:
20 years ago that’s interesting because I think that puts us at about 2002. So I would say the first thing I’d tell myself would be to sell your Level 3 stock at a hundred dollars a share and not write it down to sub a dollar and it made it to 120 or so. So I’m not being greedy. I’m not saying sell at the top, just sell it near the top.
Pete Pizzutillo:
You’re the first person on the show that’s actually gone back and talked about stocks because that’s usually my thing go back and buy Yahoo. But go ahead.
Randy Brogle:
Well, so in general, I’m not a big fan of revisiting life’s choices and second-guessing yourself. And actually part of the reason is I read a Ray Bradbury short story back in high school called A Sound of Thunder. And the gist of it is a person, they have time travel and a person’s ability to go back to prehistoric times to see dinosaurs. And so he goes back to see dinosaurs and when he gets back on the time machine, he looks down and he stepped on a butterfly and that was the rule: don’t touch anything, don’t disturb anything. And when he comes out of the time machine, the whole world has changed.
And ironically, in this environment, it was actually about politics. The backstory is there’s one person who was just elected to the presidency and when he comes back it’s the other person. It’s a very different political environment.
So that left a mark on me at a young age. And so I try not to spend a lot of time doing that. But I think one thing that wouldn’t necessarily radically change my life story or the world’s life story, but I think it would be to take these leaps earlier, to take more risks.
I’m generally a pretty risk-averse person and I wait until something’s really well-defined and established before I often jump in. So I would say, “Hey, lean in, trust myself and my capabilities and enjoy that ride. It might be chaotic, it might be a little stressful, but just embrace it, enjoy it, and have fun along the way.”
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, no, it’s great. I appreciate it. Hey, Randy, thanks for joining us today.
Randy Brogle:
My pleasure. It’s been great to spend time with you.
Pete Pizzutillo:
And how can our listeners learn more about you and LS Networks?
Randy Brogle:
No, absolutely. I think the best way is to go to LSnetworks.net on our webpage, but you can also follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn. We’re present on all those platforms and would love to have a few more followers.
Pete Pizzutillo:
Yeah, I hope everyone listening reaches out and answer their network. So that’s going to wrap up this episode of the Broadband Bunch. I thank you for listening and if you’ve made it this far, you’re probably into all things broadband. So if you get a chance check out our site @broadbandbunch.com. We have weekly episodes, resources, and an invitation for anybody listening that we’d love to be able to share your story. So please reach out. Thank you very much.
